A chat with CoachCrono, Crimson Cup champion: the winning line-up and the future of Origins TCG

CoachCrono is the Crimson Cup champion, winner of the biggest Origins TCG tournament so far: he came back from the losers bracket, went 9-3 on finals day and beat SouL in the grand final, taking home the 1/1 Dracula promo card (his run is here). A streamer, he has the Creator role on OriginsMeta: his channels and decks are on his profile.

We talk often, lately almost only about Origins, and this is less an interview than a chat between friends, a small podcast recorded a few days after the Alpha Edition Kickstarter went live. The questions are by Luigi "Davdas" Ragoni.

The three lists he won with, the ones Koin Games published on finals day, are now a tournament deck: you will find them further down, with the game codes ready to copy.

The first Origins tournament

Davdas: Hi Coach, it's a real pleasure to have you here with me. I have to be honest: we talk often, about lots of things, but lately always about Origins, and that makes this even more of a pleasure. It's crazy to host you in what, let's be honest, won't really be an interview so much as a private chat, a sort of little podcast between friends. The first thing I wanted to ask you is: what does it mean to you today to play in a tournament, the first Origins tournament?

CoachCrono: Well, that's an interesting question, because the first thing I said as soon as the tournament started was: "Relax, guys, we'll go 0-2 and then go cast the tournament." I knew I was playing a tournament for fun: I hadn't even put a delay on my stream, and I did everything I could to make it look like a show rather than a competitive tournament, on my side of course. Then it did become competitive.

It started very much for fun, more as a streamer, obviously, than as a professional player. Halfway through, though, things changed. The further the matches went, the more rounds I won in a row, the more the urge I had as a kid to play seriously came back, an urge that had gone a bit dormant since the days of Marvel Snap and The Bazaar, which unfortunately were never that competitive, and The Bazaar not at all.

What Origins is for the Coach

Davdas: Origins is a game with familiar foundations and roots, because it draws on several other titles and reminds us of lots of games we've played, but it has a new soul, and that makes you smile a bit, because it's an extremely competitive soul, and an engaging one artistically too, with this whole concept of the cards. So: what is Origins for the Coach today?

CoachCrono: For me, right now, Origins is a place where I can relax with my community, it's my main source of streaming, and it's the game I feel suits me best, and my community too, because as a streamer I obviously think about them as well, not just about me. And I think it's really fun: I wake up in the morning knowing I'm going to play some Origins games and have fun.

The line-up: Pigs, Van Helsing and Legion of the Dead

“The worst list was without a doubt Legion of the Dead. I never liked it, but it was the best-performing deck of the three.”

Davdas: So let's dive into the tournament you won. You made choices, you tested a lot, we followed you on your channels: you tried some crazy ideas too, you fitted line-ups together one way and then another, sometimes with disastrous results, sometimes with amazing ones. And in the end? What did you choose, and why? Are you fully satisfied?

CoachCrono: The choices we made are based on my ideas but also on those of lots of other guys who helped me with testing. Since it was the first tournament, what the others would do was a bit unpredictable, so I chose to simply bring the strongest, most consistent line-up possible. We also considered other routes, much riskier ones, like line-ups that counter the strongest line-ups, but in the end, since it was the first tournament, I chose to keep it simple.

Davdas: Can you tell us about the lists you brought? What did you change, what did you like? And maybe also the best and the worst of the three: looking back, would you have changed anything?

CoachCrono: The worst list is without a doubt Legion of the Dead. I never wanted to play it and I never liked it, but in the end it really was strong in the meta and it performed really, really well: it was the best-performing deck of the three.

I think the key to reading the line-ups was ultimately very simple: counter Van Helsing, which is dominating the meta. I made a different choice, though, aiming to counter Three Not So Little Pigs: to me the Pigs were more annoying than Van Helsing, and in the end, I have to say, it worked out.

The Coach wasn't the only one wary of them: in the finals Three Not So Little Pigs was in all four line-ups, Van Helsing in three. The twelve finalists' lists are on our Crimson Cup page.

The Coach's three lists

These are the lists played on 25 October. The 4 November patch then changed four of their cards: Obliterate and Baby Bear cost 1 more, Guy of Gisborne has 1 less Power and Searing Light costs 1 less.

The final against SouL

“I never thought I'd win a single matchup with Van Helsing, and yet in the first game that Van Helsing got through.”

Davdas: In the final you faced another Italian, SouL, who told us about his experience here on OriginsMeta: he spoke very highly of your matches, of completely relaxed games, because when you play a friend you know, even with a big prize at stake, you also respect the other person's spirit. You even exchanged a few kind gestures during the match, but it was still a final. How did it go from the Coach's point of view?

CoachCrono: From my point of view the final was terrible, because I went into it knowing we had already met in the playoffs the day before: he beat me 2-0 clean, I barely got to play, he sent me to the lower bracket with no chance to respond. So I knew I had the worse line-up against him: he brought a very, very smart line-up and I was clearly at a disadvantage.

But in the final I could take advantage of the help of the locations to steal the first game, the Van Helsing matchup, and win it with exactly the deck he wanted to beat at all costs. Once that was done, everything got a bit easier. I never thought I'd win a single matchup with Van Helsing, and yet in the first game that Van Helsing got through.

The 2-0 from the playoffs is in the bracket: from there the Coach dropped to the losers bracket and climbed all the way back to the grand final. SouL's side of the story is in his interview: after that first game the series went to 2-2 and was decided in the last game.

The 1/1 Dracula

Davdas: You won a special Dracula, a card that doesn't see much play in the meta right now but has an amazing story: it's the first 1-of-1 of this game, with a fully golden version. Winning it must be something special, and I imagine it is for you too. As a seasoned competitive player, how did it feel to win more than an object, more than a card, more than a value: the symbol of a new game, even before its real release?

CoachCrono: It was definitely a great honour and great fun to win, and to do it together with the community: that was the most important thing, having my community there. But it has to be said that winning is always nice, and if there's a prize, even better.

Obliterate and the meta

“I wouldn't change anything at all in the meta: you'd have to touch it again as soon as the counter comes out, and you'd create an endless loop.”

Davdas: Here on OriginsMeta too we've seen lots of analytics telling us about cards played more than others and combos used much more. The current state of the game speaks of a set that's, let's say, limping, halfway through its growth: the cards that will complete the starting set are still to come. Are there situations or cards you would change? What is making the Origins meta a bit oppressive? How would you change it?

CoachCrono: There are definitely some cards that are overperforming. Obliterate comes to mind: it's a card that should be played in control combo decks, and instead it's simply used in aggro and midrange decks, because it's too strong and has no counter.

But I think it will sort itself out and evolve naturally when the rest of the set comes out. Right now I don't see it as a problem at all: I just think we need to wait and give it time. So no, I wouldn't change anything at all in the meta, because then you'd have to touch it again as soon as the counter comes out, and you'd create an endless loop.

In the finals Obliterate is in 6 of the 12 lists, like Golden Egg, Mind Palace and Tin Woodman, and only Baby Bear does better (7): it's in all four Three Not So Little Pigs lists, in the Coach's Legion of the Dead and in SouL's Merlin. The counts for every card are on our Crimson Cup page; the ladder stats, from the games recorded with OriginsMeta Tracker, are in Analytics.

Koin saw it differently: with the 4 November patch, released the same day as this interview, which was recorded earlier, Obliterate now costs 10 instead of 9.

The future of Origins

“If they don't give in to the compromises they'll be offered and keep the game competitive, they can easily succeed.”

Davdas: That's interesting, because it brings us to what the Coach thinks of Origins today. Origins launched its Kickstarter a few days ago, lots of people are starting to take an interest in the game and we already have active communities: the numbers of our streamers, of our site and of the tournaments tell us it's growing, it's clearly expanding. How do you see Origins' near future, on the way to the official launch? And what do you think could happen from there on?

CoachCrono: I think Origins has a great future ahead of it, with some big unknowns for sure. But it has to be said that so far they've done everything they needed to do to make the game fun and accessible to more and more people, starting of course with free-to-play, their trademark: anyone can play for free and compete for free, and live a bit of that American dream that I actually lived by winning the first tournament.

I think that's the right path. If they don't give in to the compromises that the big companies will surely offer them, and keep the game competitive, they can easily succeed. They just need to keep doing what they're doing, with great consistency, and improve the things that are rightly still missing, like the organisational experience during tournaments.

The Kickstarter is the Alpha Edition one: rewards, odds and dates are on our Kickstarter page.

Why play it, as a beginner or an expert

Davdas: Why would you recommend Origins to a player who is new to card games? And why to an experienced player who already knows the genre?

CoachCrono: To someone who isn't experienced with these games I'd definitely recommend it for two main reasons. The first is the lack, in quotes, of a combat system: the cards fight on their own, so you don't have to think about trades and chains from the start, like in Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh!, and that makes it easier to get into. The second is that it's free-to-play, so you don't need to invest money to get into the world of card games, as you would with a physical card game.

I recommend it to more experienced players too, actually for the opposite reason: since it's an easily accessible game, there are lots of people who are just starting out, and for a professional player that means, right now, more prizes that are easier to win.

Fairy tales as an outfit

Davdas: Do you think Origins has also chosen the right outfit to tell its story? A lore based on fairy tales is already driving lots of players crazy but makes others turn up their noses: can it win the hearts of card game lovers?

CoachCrono: I think so. You just have to enter the game and see Winnie-the-Pooh, Beauty and the Beast and other big brands adapted in a very particular style, completely transformed: Winnie-the-Pooh goes from a defenceless little bear to a 200-kilo bodybuilder. That makes everything very fun but at the same time very familiar, because it's still Winnie-the-Pooh, the little bear you knew as a kid. So yes, I think their marketing choice was spot on: minimum cost, maximum result.

OriginsMeta according to the Coach

Davdas: You've known the OriginsMeta project since it was born, because we've always talked about it: I involved you even before we went public, and you've always been a precious ally in growing our product. We're always expanding, we create new tools and new pages to visit, and people thank us so much for the stats, the data and much more, and we'll never stop thanking them for choosing us every day. What else can we do to improve? To make the Origins community ever happier to visit OriginsMeta?

CoachCrono: I think OriginsMeta is doing a great job, especially in terms of accessibility, and I'd keep going down that road: being on people's side, as you already are, and making OriginsMeta as simple and intuitive as possible. It has to be said that an incredible job has already been done on that front, but like everything in life, it can always be improved. Maybe there's still a little work to do on the tracker, but I think the bulk of it has been done, so rather than advice I can only give you lots of compliments. I know how much passion and dedication you put into it, always listening to players, and that makes the difference.

The tracker is OriginsMeta Tracker, the Windows app that records games on its own and feeds the stats in Analytics.

Davdas: You're too kind, my friend: we'll keep doing our best. I invite everyone to follow the Coach on all his channels: he's often live, and with Origins, telling us more and more about this wonderful game. Coach, a big hug and thank you.

CoachCrono: Same here. Love you guys.

Off air

With the mics off, the Coach gave us an anecdote, "if you want to meme it":

CoachCrono: About two months ago, maybe two and a half or even three, when the first Origins demo came out, Senit told me: "Look, there's this new TCG, I think it's very promising." I replied: "Stop recommending me crappy little games." I tried it again two months later, when I was less frustrated with The Bazaar, and I fell in love with it right away. In hindsight it's funny that the biggest face of Origins right now is the very guy who told him: "Don't recommend me this crappy little game."